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MuskyHopeful
09-08-2009, 05:33 PM
Is it illegal to take a picture of a Canadian Musky shorter than the legal limit?

Kevin

chuckski
09-08-2009, 05:42 PM
I would say no!(we catch lots of Muskie in Canada and none of them are over 54")Net em pop the hooks and quick photo and back she goes.

Ozbie
09-08-2009, 06:56 PM
With the discussion of the Can-Am tournament it would seem it is illegal but not enforced. With the whole discussion going on, I would a guess either a re-write of the wording, or perhaps an enforcement of the current laws....should be interesting....Oz

BLL_BIGFISH
09-08-2009, 08:15 PM
In July of 2006 Herbie told me that Ontario wardens could be pretty tough about any unnecessary handling of undersized fish. I understood him to mean that if anyone was watching you could be in jeapordy of a ticket for taking pics.

That said, I've got pics of Herbie and my son with an undersized fish my son caught, and I've got another pic of me holding a real nice (but undersized) fish my son caught.

Ricky Bobbie
09-08-2009, 08:59 PM
It is against the law. I asked this question 2 years ago to a canadian official.

Now will they write you a ticket....... probably not. Any thing under 54" is illegal to handle other than verifying it's size.

Rick

Steve Herbeck
09-09-2009, 02:41 PM
the only discussion i had with the warden as far as taking pics of fish was pre season and any musky incidently caught had to be immediatly water released or whatever it took to have an immediate and quick release.
as yu take a fish out of the net a quick pic at boatside and then immediate release shouldn't bother anyone.never said anything about under 54" during the season but was concerned about education of proper handling of fish which i go through extensivly every sat. night at the orientation,more than most resorts do from what i know or see.
i recomended a video be produced to be shown by all resort owners prior to guest fishing on all lakes containing muskies especially those designated by the MNR as world record potential water thus the 54" size limit on those lakes. i have offered to help produce it but have so far not heard anything back.
where the education really needs to be directed even more is at those not fishing for muskies and have never handled a musky such as walleye/bass fishermen squeezing them into a small net and dumping them into the bottom of the boat.
if that is the case then it would be for all slot fish of any species or any fish once you possess your limit.
pretty sticky in my book.
i can see with a big tourney like was proposed for the can am and all the publicity,that some type restrictions be imposed because of the potential for large numbers of fish that could be caught in a relativley small area or time frame but what, only fish over 54" qualify, and not only that but it is ok to over handle the over 54" fish which are the potential genetic giants? they should be handled even more carefully as the more body mass and weight the more potential harm that can be done. back assword if you ask me.
our camp policy is total c/r using repos for mounts unless it is a potential world record,then if it could be verified i'd still release it.but it would be sad to deny a person a quick well handled pic of a beautifull fish following or as it is removed from the net and during a release.

trophymuskie
09-09-2009, 04:44 PM
It is ilegal to take pictures of undersized fish but unless the CO sees you mishandling the fish or he's in a bad mood you'll never get ticketed for it.

Look at it like comparing J walking ( taking picture of undersized fish during the season ) to a felony ( taking pictures of any fish out of season ).

We have seasons for a reason, they dont want the fish to be C&R during the off season but there is nothing wrong doing it during open season no mater the size.

So if it's ok to take pictures of a 40 inch fish from lake A with a 36 inch limit it's no different then taking a picture of a 40 inch fish from lake B down the road with a 54 inch limit.

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin
www.trophymuskiecharters.com

john skarie
09-09-2009, 04:58 PM
My understanding of the law is that it's illegal to use sub-legal fish for "gainfull intent".

In other words restraining or measuring fish, or perhaps even photographing fish with the intent of making money is illegal.

That is where the tournament thing gets sticky.

The tournament requires you to handle sub-legals, for competition and money.

The Ministry pretty plainly says that they won't allow use of sub-legals for tournaments, and make no apologies for it.

JS

Ozbie
09-09-2009, 06:19 PM
JS, that is not the wording at this point, it might be changed. It implies it is illegal to measure or photo an undersized fish. I would think if those pushing for tournaments will press the issue and it will either become enforced or be re-written. It should be fun to watch unfold...muskie fisherman taking picture of "poachers" to turn them....great muskie world we live in.....Oz

trophymuskie
09-09-2009, 06:29 PM
>
>My understanding of the law is that it's illegal to use
>sub-legal fish for "gainfull intent".
>
>In other words restraining or measuring fish, or perhaps
>even photographing fish with the intent of making money is
>illegal.
>
>That is where the tournament thing gets sticky.
>
>The tournament requires you to handle sub-legals, for
>competition and money.
>
>The Ministry pretty plainly says that they won't allow use
>of sub-legals for tournaments, and make no apologies for it.
>
>JS

John this is completely different then taking pictures. Tournaments require sub legal fish to be handled and that's the no no.

Taking pictures of a fish caught while fishing for fun isn't going to require the same steps of verification that a muskie caught during a tournament will.

BTW keeping a fish in a net is the same as keeping it in a livewell which is possesion. You can't do it to sub legal or even legals with a conservation license. I guess every fish from Lac Seul fit in this category.

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin www.trophymuskiecharters.com

MuskyHopeful
09-09-2009, 07:27 PM
>Tournaments require sub legal fish to be handled and that's
>the no no.
>
>Taking pictures of a fish caught while fishing for fun isn't
>going to require the same steps of verification that a
>muskie caught during a tournament will.
>>
>Keep releasing them all
>Richard Collin www.trophymuskiecharters.com

I find it hard to believe that highly skilled competitive anglers measuring and photographing fish on bump boards during a competition, would in any way stress fish more than the much higher numbers of less skilled anglers that catch and photograph muskies every day.

You're just rationalizing the MNR's decision to enforce a regulation when it suits them. That type of thing happens with a lot of laws and is part of real life. Happens with speeding and a lot of other things. So be it.

But if you're honest, it's obviously no more dangerous for a sub-legal fish to be measured and photographed by a tournament angler than it is for a past his prime rock star to hold a fish in his own hands for a picture in a highly skilled guide's boat.

Probably a lot less dangerous. Those guys live hard lives and may be shaky and not sure handed.

Kevin

trophymuskie
09-10-2009, 05:08 AM
I think there is a huge difference as the weekend Joe will not have to net, handle and lay down every fish he catches. Smaller fish are normally water released and only big fish and badly hooked ones get netted and only some get their pictures taken. Heck I pull my lure away from any fish under 40. I think a quick in water measurement is also a lot less stressfull then been laid down on a bumpboard for accurate measurement.

How many big $$$$ muskie tournaments out there don't use judge boats? Does the WTT still use weight ins?

Remember this is Canada we're talking about here or a natural reproducing fishery, so if a fish dies we can't just stock another one.

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin
www.trophymuskiecharters.com

john skarie
09-10-2009, 05:25 AM
The MNR recommends a water release and in-water measurement of sub-legals.

They consider taking sub-legal fish in the boat for exact measurements to be excessive handling.

The tournament format requires exact measurment of fish, and that is why there is no "grey" area, they don't give you the benefit of the doubt on handling in tournaments vs. an everyday angler.

JS

titan
09-11-2009, 07:08 AM
Guys,

In Ontario, we have Conservation and Sportfishing Licenses. It is unlawful to restrain a sub legal fish if you do not have a Sportfishing license in Ontario. Most CO's arent going to pay much attention to this issue unless the fish is being blatantly mishandled. However, there are some exceptions: on G-Bay there are several CO's that will warn muskie anglers NOT to even take a sub legal fish - a fish less than 54 inches - out of the water if they do not have a Sportfishing License. This is especially true in Southern Georgian Bay.

Bottom line is spend the extra few bucks and get a Sportfishing License and always handle the big heavies with care.

Tight lines, y'all...
TITAN
(Mike Dalakis)

MRoberts
09-11-2009, 08:29 AM
Rich and John you are not the

MRoberts
09-11-2009, 08:37 AM
John your

john skarie
09-11-2009, 08:45 AM
The MNR is not going to assume who is better than who at handling fish. Regs are for protection of the fish no matter who is holding the rod, Joe Pro or first time angler.

The point of Canada's stringent release sizes, 54" on most trophy waters, is to protect the fish that are of sub-legal size to ensure they have a trophy fishery in the future.

That is why sub-legals should be un-hooked and measured in the water in thier eyes. It's to help ensure survival of a fishery that is not supplemented by stocking as so many are in the USA.

Quality fishing to some may mean being able to bump board and take multiple photos of every single fish that they catch.

To others it's the chance at catching large wild muskies that weren't raised in a race-way or a pond.

If you want to fish in Canada and enjoy the unbelievable fishery thay have, than check the ego at the door and enjoy it. Why worry about what you can't do after you catch the fish. Just enjoy the catch.

Gainful intent can't really be proven outside of a tournament situation. When the rules say measure every fish out of water on a bump board and require photos than it's pretty easy to see why they would take issue with that. Tournaments put a bullseye on themselves by thier very nature, and the MNR doesn't tip-toe around the fact that they will not budge on regs for tournaments.

They have to catch you in the act, kind of hard to do that with guys shooting videos or guides. Not so hard with a tournament that is held on known dates in a specific place.

It is what it is I guess. Maybe it's not so bad to have places where tournaments won't be held, there are plenty here in the good ole' USA.

JS

REPETESPINNERMAN
09-11-2009, 08:54 AM
I guess the main question to ask at this point then is, what exactly is the number one goal, and the main "reason" for all these stringent rules?

Is it so that Canada remains a great fishery that draws "tourists" that bring in tons of money?

or

Is it to simply protect the life of every targeted trophy fish that swims in Canada regardless of the impact to fisherman?

or

Do we no longer even know and this has just become an out of control conservation enforcement system with rules so stringent one might think PETA is writing them?




As far as I'm concerned, unless a fish is close to my PB I don't need to even take it out of the water. Part of me agrees with some of these stringent rules given how I notice some supposed skilled stickseses post photoses of everyses 30 inch fishses they fall intoses. It's when taking a photo becomes some sort of bogus proof of skill that too many fish get man handled.

MRoberts
09-11-2009, 09:16 AM

REPETESPINNERMAN
09-11-2009, 09:25 AM
>And I think the original intent was number one. If no one
>wanted to fish for these fish there would be no money to
>manage them.

So, one could say that we "need to get real" and "it's a buisness" and it's all about the...ahem..."money, money, money"?

trophymuskie
09-11-2009, 10:03 AM
>
>And I think the original intent was number one. If no one
>wanted to fish for these fish there would be no money to
>manage them.

Mike in Canada there is no money to manage them period.

Your previous posts made a lot of sense but so did John's with the tournaments been viewed differently.

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin
www.trophymuskiecharters.com

trophymuskie
09-11-2009, 10:16 AM
>I guess the main question to ask at this point then is, what
>exactly is the number one goal, and the main "reason" for
>all these stringent rules?
>
>Is it so that Canada remains a great fishery that draws
>"tourists" that bring in tons of money?
>
>or
>
>Is it to simply protect the life of every targeted trophy
>fish that swims in Canada regardless of the impact to
>fisherman?
>
>or
>
>Do we no longer even know and this has just become an out of
>control conservation enforcement system with rules so
>stringent one might think PETA is writing them?
>
>
>
>
>As far as I'm concerned, unless a fish is close to my PB I
>don't need to even take it out of the water. Part of me
>agrees with some of these stringent rules given how I notice
>some supposed skilled stickseses post photoses of everyses
>30 inch fishses they fall intoses. It's when taking a photo
>becomes some sort of bogus proof of skill that too many fish
>get man handled.
>
>

Ontario's muskie fisheries are managed to first and foremost protect them so that our kids can enjoy them then maybe you will find tourism on the list.

Ontario fisheries are also managed by having trophy waters with 54 inch limits but we also have waters with 36 inch limits if you want to keep one to mount or eat if you wish. I guess there is a little of everything for everyone. You look real hard and some places in Canada have no size limit on muskies and others have a 10 fish limit over 5 inches.

With a 36 inch limit they are making sure all fish get to spawn a couple of times. With a 54 inch limit they are making sure all fish grow to their trophy potential.

I learned something a few years ago that blew me away, Dr Cassleman told us that 99% of all female muskies in the Ottawa River will reach 50 inches or more. That means 99% of the smaller fish I release are future 50 inchers. :+

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin
www.trophymuskiecharters.com

john skarie
09-11-2009, 10:54 AM
Mike;

What I meant to imply was if you won't go to Canada to fish unless you can take every fish out of the water to measure and photo, than that to me says you're ego is getting in the way of enjoying the great fishery.

We all measure and photo fish, I'm not saying that act itself is egotistical.

John

MRoberts
09-11-2009, 11:05 AM
Thanks for clearing that up John, but that

Breal31
09-11-2009, 11:24 AM
If you have to worry about getting a ticket for taking a picture of an "undersized" fish then you are probably fishing in downtown Toronto because the chances of you running across an MNR warden while on the water AND with a musky in your net in NW Ontario are about as good as getting struck by lightning...it aint happening, so dont worry about it.

I also don't understand how a tournament that had about 10 people signed up for it is still being discussed as anything close to relevant in current or future matters...

REPETESPINNERMAN
09-11-2009, 12:04 PM
>If you have to worry about getting a ticket for taking a
>picture of an "undersized" fish then you are probably
>fishing in downtown Toronto because the chances of you
>running across an MNR warden while on the water AND with a
>musky in your net in NW Ontario are about as good as getting
>struck by lightning...it aint happening, so dont worry about
>it.


I wouldn't go nearly that far. I was fishing a very remote area of Lac Suel a few years ago and a warden came up to us. He says "You guys boated 14 fish in the past 45 minutes". This is a good spot huh? How was that sandwich you were eating earlier for lunch?" This guy had the binoculars on us for a heck of a long time and was totally out of sight.

I know that fishing walleye and fishing musky are two very different animals with different catch rates...but think about it...you get a somewhat novice musky fisherman that catches a ski and it gets caught up in the net and it's hooked deep...it might take this guy 20 minutes or more to get unhooked and photos taken. Lots of commotion on the water drawing attention.

Probable - no
About as unlikely as getting struck by lightning - wouldn't go nearly that far IMO.

john skarie
09-11-2009, 01:30 PM
Hey Mike;

My understanding of the tournament situation from talking to a member of Muskies Canada is that the MNR is stating that sub-legal fish may not be used in tournaments.

Not because there is a picture being taken, but because they simply won't allow use of sub-legals for competition with regards to muskies. Apparently this may transfer over to walleyes as well.

The notion that the reason for them not giving permision is BECAUSE of picture taking is false.

Maybe that clears this up a bit?

JS

REPETESPINNERMAN
09-11-2009, 02:17 PM
>Not because there is a picture being taken, but because they
>simply won't allow use of sub-legals for competition with
>regards to muskies. Apparently this may transfer over to
>walleyes as well.
>
>The notion that the reason for them not giving permision is
>BECAUSE of picture taking is false.
>
>Maybe that clears this up a bit?
>
>JS

Huh? Right...correct... they "won't allow it" because they consider it unnecessary handling of the fish, whether it's for a quick photo or a quick measurement.


-------------------
I'm not up to the challenge anymore. I can play, but I'm not up to the challenge. Believe me, I've questioned my decision. I believe it's the right decision. AND THERE'S NOTHING THEY CAN DO OR SAY TO CHANGE THAT.

Brett Favre Retirement Press Conference #1 Transcript - March 6, 2008

We'll never forget you Brent.

MRoberts
09-11-2009, 03:38 PM
Thank you John, yes that does clear things up.

Nail A Pig!

Mike

trophymuskie
09-12-2009, 07:16 AM
>
>Hey Mike;
>
>My understanding of the tournament situation from talking to
>a member of Muskies Canada is that the MNR is stating that
>sub-legal fish may not be used in tournaments.
>
>Not because there is a picture being taken, but because they
>simply won't allow use of sub-legals for competition with
>regards to muskies. Apparently this may transfer over to
>walleyes as well.
>
>The notion that the reason for them not giving permision is
>BECAUSE of picture taking is false.
>
>Maybe that clears this up a bit?
>
>JS

I can just see the heading, Bevus and Buthead win the Can-Am and $20 000 landing 4 sub legal fish during the 2 day event. What an acomplishement.

Keep releasing them all
Richard Collin
www.trophymuskiecharters.com

Breal31
09-12-2009, 10:13 AM
20,000??

Maybe 2,000 ....

MuskyHopeful
09-12-2009, 09:17 PM
>>>>I can just see the heading, Bevus and Buthead win the Can-Am
>and $20 000 landing 4 sub legal fish during the 2 day event.
>What an acomplishement.
>
>Keep releasing them all
>Richard Collin
>www.trophymuskiecharters.com

And you asked me to explain my "snide" comments. LOL.

Kevin